I have been following Pope Benedict utterances on Islam in various media. His seeming endorsement of the view that Islam spread through the sword, had some of us across the world choking with anger, many of us choking with the sheer embarrassment of a Head of State being an utter idiot, and some others of us choking with chortles of guffaws. Mine was actually a combination of all theree.
Anger – because in an already polarised world – a head of state and a head of religion has no business behaving like an absolute idiot. While people are dying of hunger, women getting raped for getting educated, people dying of AIDS while organised religion demands prevention of sex education rather than prevention of AIDS, where women still believe that burning themselevs to death with their husband is required, quoting some bigot from the 14th century to stir the pot of bigotry seems to be a good way to divert attention from the issues. After all, we must accept that all fundamentalists have a common agenda. And this current Pope is probably as fundamentalist as any of them. And I define a fundamentalist view as one that believes his/her way is superior to all others and consequently all other views are inferior to his/her’s.
source : here
Embarrassment – because this kind of stupidity is horrifyingly embarassing. It is like watching a Ben Stiller film or [ Kareena Kapoor trying to ape a Helen in Don. A kind of horrified fascination as to how much lower can it sink – and they show you :). I have been following the Pope ‘s condoms cause aids’ logic and his abortionists are sinners thread – but this is by far the most embarrassing in its stupidity. It is a bit like quoting the Nazis to describe the allies in the second world war – after all the 14th century was a period of war between the ‘civilizations’.
Amusement because I love it when the pot calls the kettle black. The sheer gall and hypocrisy of his statement made me chuckle. How does the Pope think that Christianity in general, and Catholicism in particular, spread. What did he think that the armies of Spain and Portugal did in South and Central America and in whose name; what did he think that happened in Europe between the time Charlamagne converted and the begninig of the Crusades, what did he think happened in Africa – enslaving a people because they are heathen and then coverting them, and what about the rights of Jews in Christian Europe – even before the 1930’s! And what was his own Church’s position when it came to the Holocaust or even women’s rights, or in the fight against AIDS. Or indeed to knowledge, science and human rights. If left to the Church – Europe would still be in the dark ages, women would still be barefoot, perpetually pregnant and in the kitchen and there would still be the Divine Right of Kings.
If it comes to a choice of organised religions – there is not much to choose from. They all have their moments of glory, compassion, wisdom and caring and long centuries of just the opposite. The Pope’s attempt to score brownie points – in this context – is simply stupid.
Oh how easy it is for you to throw your stones. One fine difference between Islam & Christianity (esp. Catholicism) these days is that there has been an acceptance of the historical role & apology for their violent ways against other religions. This is especially true regarding Christian violence perpetrated against Muslims during the Crusades. Muslims are either blinded by love of their faith or extremely ignorant of history to think that Islam was never spread by the sword…think North Africa, Middle East, India. Do Muslims accept, recognize, or apologize for this?
As some may ignorantly believe, the Pope was not spouting some anti-Islam rhetoric but rather making a larger point by quoting the ignorant statements of a Christian emperor who at the time was under siege by a Muslim army. No doubt that most in the Muslim world, even those beaurocrats, scholars, and religious figures demanding an apology, even read or heard the entire speach by the Pope. As far as they know, the Pope’s only statement was that quote regarding Muhammed. Do Muslims apologize each time they disrespect other religions or religious figures? Hardly! And, rather than being a fundamentalist, this Pope has actively sought dialogue with other Abrahamic communities, especially Muslims…something lacking from the majority of the ‘peace-loving’ Muslim world.
thank you for your comments chad.
i really am not throwing stones. The religion i was born into – managed the caste system —- something i find appalling —- for the last 3-5 millenia. It may not have converted with the sword – but allowing a whole bunch of people to think that they are ‘not equal’ and another bunch to think that they have god given rights over those ‘below’ leaves me – and those like me — no room to try and take the ‘my history is better than yours’ position. That is not to say that those who claim to ‘love’ their religion don’t try:)
There is a difference between those who practise a religion and the organised form of the religion itself.
The apologies from the Church emanated when people who follow the faith – ended up in ‘liberal’ secular republics of their choice. Let’s not confuse old fashioned European and American liberalism which believed in rationality, free thought and liberty — with organised religion.
The organised religion apologising was a result of its practitioners – as opposed to its administrators — feeling guilt over the actions of their ancestors.
For Islamic society to end up in a similar position – Islamic society has to change along similar lines that are relevant to their cultures. Unless people ask for and demand change and their freedom – be it in government, be it the way organised religion impacts their life, be it on human rights or equality – its not going to happen. And its, only when there is overall freedom and the system willing to fight for and defend those freedoms, will we have introspection on history and post that the apologies.
It might come a surprise to you, but for many of us relegion is as important (if not more) as AIDS, poverty, and all the atrocities you mention.
I think the Pope’s intentions were meant well. I don’t think he needs to claim his ten minutes of fame as most of us tend to.
an assumption that religion is not as important to us as some of the other issues is a fallacy. the question is what is the role of organised religion. is organised religion and its leaders trying to achieve harmony & peace – or is their own agenda preventing them from the same.
The pope today – following his affliction with acute footinmouthitis has had a go at the Jewish people. So in a week he has pissed of the muslims and the jews. maybe next week he will target the hindus and the buddhists -and probably go on record as the only pontiff who has managed to get all the other religions together.
What, you don’t like Ben Stiller?
The pope i do not think will think a lot before he targets the Hindus. Even if he does, the “pseudo-secular” hindus wont even say a word. Some other pope has done it some time back, during Diwali as well.
Hi Chad! ‘peace-loving’ Muslim world? Ok, in the medieval ages we were still on our way of evolution from apes to humans, hence the violence by the followers of all the religions is understandable. But we are now on the zenith of evolution, led by US of A, the most developed amongst us. Let us see how much peace it has taught us. Who taught peace to Afghans for use on Russians, and who gave Mujahidin title to them?. Iraq was a non-entity for the world, until peace-loving US of A(Arms?Atom bombs?Attacks?), armed Saddam to the hilt for 8 years war with Iran, spreading lot of peace in the process. When Saddam became thoroughly peaceful after 8 years, he tried to settle disputed territory with Kuwait peacefully. Piqued, the USA(Use Strong Arms?) attacked Iraq and forced UN sanctions killing a million Iraqi children/women/men in the process. That was lot of peace. More peace followed in the form of WMD scare and subsequent attack on Iraq. If in doubt, read the latest news from USA intelligence that has in its assessment of terrorist trend, come to conclusion that indeed world has become more peaceful after attack on Iraq, and more peace loving groups are sprouting independent of Osama – the most peaceful figure nurtured by USA for loving Russians who themselves were having peaceful visit in Afghanistan. Why do they abhor when the love they taught is being used on them by Osama?
Yes you are true. Love and peace are the hallmark of USA and its cronies. And Muslim world should be grateful to them for getting lesson in peace from them. When Japan loved USA at Pearl Harbour, its love was reciprocated with Atom Bomb. Why do you expect the Iraqis to tamely surrender to USA making love to them? USA went uninvited to Vietnam and spread unimaginable peace there. Indeed, The USA was so enamoured of ‘Love of Civilizations’ that it dug up phoney excuses for making wild love in Iraq, and let us see what (late) Rev. Pope John Paul II had to say. He termed this peaceful adventure of USA in Iraq as ‘Crime against humanity’, (which had led to another forced crime against humanity -terrorism). And when you initiate a crime, you get back your own share from affected party. So why blame, why not seek justice? The peace prevailing in Palestine for last 60 years is courtesy USA and Britain, displacing Palestinians to create an artificial state of Israel. They facilitated to divide India and create, again, an artificial state – Pakistan. Both are now proving to be very peaceful to the world. Why complaint about ‘peace loving’ Muslims? As for Palestinian problem, when Christians can leave the Holy Land of Jerusalem and establish Vatican, when Muslims can alter their Face-direction for prayer from Jerusalem to towards Mecca , when Bodhists can accept their most holy place being under Indian rule, when most holy place of Sikhs – Nankana Saheb- can be in Pakistan, what on earth was the need for settling the Jews in an artificially created State? Was there lack of space on earth? Large chunks of empty space in USA/Australia were there for settling displaced Jews from Germany in the aftermath of World War II. No, by settling Jews from all over the world after displacing Palestinians, USA and Britain were only spreading what they are good at – peace.
Sow a wind, reap a whirlwind – so goes the saying.
Irshad
if we actually get into a tu tu mein mein – this will never end. for every piecee of data of injustice from one side you will find an equal piece of data that claims injustice on the part of t
the other side.
maybe it is time that people in all societies got more involved and stopped their ‘leaders’ from killing in both our names and the names of our religion and/or god.
Israel is a reality. it exists. just as Pakistan does or the LoC. It happened 60 years ago and cannot be undone. Deal with it. Everyone else has learned to deal with their own sets of demons and disappointements. You can’t use one incident in one part of the word screw up achievement and success and moving on for one sixth of the world’s population.
Also, Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq are not just Muslim issues. They are global / humanist issues relating to justice and the right to self determination. By allowing the extremist religious factions to set the agenda, Islamic states have blundered in so far as ensuring that these issues are settled justly.
Do you think that the Arab countries with all that oil and all the ability to effect a negotiation could not have found a negotitated settlement to this issue twenty years ago. But it serves their interests not to. Amonst the biggest two financial supporters of the US action in the middle east have been Saudi ARabia and Kuwait. Pakistan is a holding camp for terrorists. All of them are dictatorships. In all of them you have some form of religious repression (and i don’t just mean other religions, i also mean bar on certain sects of Islam), In all of them you have gross violation of human rights. As long as the Palestinian issue is not settled, they have an effective smoke screen and justification for their actions.
Ultimately the saddest thing is that the whole world and different interest groups have played ping pong with the Palestinian people and their right to be. And no one really spoke up for them. And even today, no one hears them.