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	<title>Comments on: Excerpts &#8211; Annihilation of Caste 2</title>
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	<link>http://calamur.org/gargi/2008/03/07/excerpts-annihilation-of-caste-2/</link>
	<description>A Point of View</description>
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		<title>By: gargi</title>
		<link>http://calamur.org/gargi/2008/03/07/excerpts-annihilation-of-caste-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2581</link>
		<dc:creator>gargi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://calamur.org/gargi/2008/03/07/excerpts-annihilation-of-caste-2/#comment-2581</guid>
		<description>rights have to be continously fought for and maintained.... 
whether it is the right to free expression or the right to live your life as you see fit, or a right to live without discrimination.. the right to be without others f***ing our trip :)

In a constitutional republic ... it is our fundamental right.... and I am afraid that we are all handing back these rights to fundamentalists and fanatics.
You are right when you say that temple entry won&#039;t make equals ... but it isn&#039;t one thing that makes up inequality... it is a lot of bricks and this is just one of them... it has to be dismantled in every sphere ... this is just a start...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rights have to be continously fought for and maintained&#8230;.<br />
whether it is the right to free expression or the right to live your life as you see fit, or a right to live without discrimination.. the right to be without others f***ing our trip <img src='http://calamur.org/gargi/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>In a constitutional republic &#8230; it is our fundamental right&#8230;. and I am afraid that we are all handing back these rights to fundamentalists and fanatics.<br />
You are right when you say that temple entry won&#8217;t make equals &#8230; but it isn&#8217;t one thing that makes up inequality&#8230; it is a lot of bricks and this is just one of them&#8230; it has to be dismantled in every sphere &#8230; this is just a start&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Prabin</title>
		<link>http://calamur.org/gargi/2008/03/07/excerpts-annihilation-of-caste-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2538</link>
		<dc:creator>Prabin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2008 09:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://calamur.org/gargi/2008/03/07/excerpts-annihilation-of-caste-2/#comment-2538</guid>
		<description>I guess we are much in agreement about enforcing our rights in society. I went back to find out what was Dr. Ambedkar&#039;s stand on temple entry. He started Kalaram temple entry movement in 1930, and in 1933 he opposed the Temple entry bill, eventually stopping the movement a year later.

I have posted some of his explanations in this blog as quotations. They are long posts, if possible check &#039;em out. 

http://ambedkarquotes.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/temple-entry-wont-make-equals/

http://ambedkarquotes.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/do-depressed-classes-desire-temple-enty/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess we are much in agreement about enforcing our rights in society. I went back to find out what was Dr. Ambedkar&#8217;s stand on temple entry. He started Kalaram temple entry movement in 1930, and in 1933 he opposed the Temple entry bill, eventually stopping the movement a year later.</p>
<p>I have posted some of his explanations in this blog as quotations. They are long posts, if possible check &#8216;em out. </p>
<p><a href="http://ambedkarquotes.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/temple-entry-wont-make-equals/" rel="nofollow">http://ambedkarquotes.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/temple-entry-wont-make-equals/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://ambedkarquotes.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/do-depressed-classes-desire-temple-enty/" rel="nofollow">http://ambedkarquotes.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/do-depressed-classes-desire-temple-enty/</a></p>
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		<title>By: gargi</title>
		<link>http://calamur.org/gargi/2008/03/07/excerpts-annihilation-of-caste-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2470</link>
		<dc:creator>gargi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:42:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://calamur.org/gargi/2008/03/07/excerpts-annihilation-of-caste-2/#comment-2470</guid>
		<description>I agree with you... 
there are two different issues here
a) caste discrimination --- both the subtle and the overt manifestations need to be anihilated.... I am not sure that it will happen unless caste itself goes... until we hold on to caste based traditions and caste based surnames, or caste based show of pride... the discrimination remains... simply because the origins are discriminatory......

But, we (as a nation) hold on to them in the name of social tradition or whatever....And until we hold on these, the caste system will thrive. 

b) the right to equality - i have equal rights under the eyes of the state, and the state will ensure that all institutions - including religion - will respect those rights....
The way to achieve this is a lot more public action... use the State and the Judiciary to uphold the constitution.... most of us just give up......

When Tamilian dalit christians are given the rear pews in Churches (the upper caste christians are in the front pews) .. sue them.... When the Sabrimala doesn&#039;t allow women in, take them to court....

the Hindu tradition has a great tendency to co opt all other streams and Gods as its own.... go to Shirdi and you will see that a Sufi Saint has been Brahminzed (seriously). Look at Buddha and his take over by the dashavatar mythology !
....And, in the co-option it re affirms various sorts of status - be it gender or caste or whatever ---

Civic Society has to keep prodding the state to ensure that constitutional rights are upheld.... to give a parallel, equal opportunity is not a self running system in the West... activists of all hues and shades move the courts periodically to ensure that those rights are not violated..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you&#8230;<br />
there are two different issues here<br />
a) caste discrimination &#8212; both the subtle and the overt manifestations need to be anihilated&#8230;. I am not sure that it will happen unless caste itself goes&#8230; until we hold on to caste based traditions and caste based surnames, or caste based show of pride&#8230; the discrimination remains&#8230; simply because the origins are discriminatory&#8230;&#8230;</p>
<p>But, we (as a nation) hold on to them in the name of social tradition or whatever&#8230;.And until we hold on these, the caste system will thrive. </p>
<p>b) the right to equality &#8211; i have equal rights under the eyes of the state, and the state will ensure that all institutions &#8211; including religion &#8211; will respect those rights&#8230;.<br />
The way to achieve this is a lot more public action&#8230; use the State and the Judiciary to uphold the constitution&#8230;. most of us just give up&#8230;&#8230;</p>
<p>When Tamilian dalit christians are given the rear pews in Churches (the upper caste christians are in the front pews) .. sue them&#8230;. When the Sabrimala doesn&#8217;t allow women in, take them to court&#8230;.</p>
<p>the Hindu tradition has a great tendency to co opt all other streams and Gods as its own&#8230;. go to Shirdi and you will see that a Sufi Saint has been Brahminzed (seriously). Look at Buddha and his take over by the dashavatar mythology !<br />
&#8230;.And, in the co-option it re affirms various sorts of status &#8211; be it gender or caste or whatever &#8212;</p>
<p>Civic Society has to keep prodding the state to ensure that constitutional rights are upheld&#8230;. to give a parallel, equal opportunity is not a self running system in the West&#8230; activists of all hues and shades move the courts periodically to ensure that those rights are not violated..</p>
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		<title>By: Prabin</title>
		<link>http://calamur.org/gargi/2008/03/07/excerpts-annihilation-of-caste-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2461</link>
		<dc:creator>Prabin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://calamur.org/gargi/2008/03/07/excerpts-annihilation-of-caste-2/#comment-2461</guid>
		<description>Hello Harini,

I knew you had read it before (from earlier discussion), I meant that &quot;temple entry&quot; didnt get any good mention in the book, be for a reason probably.

I agree that, I should respect people&#039;s wishes and their rights to worship.., even if I think its not a right to be somewhere on some debilitating terms. 

There are examples aplenty in India that show, call for change comes when people face crude and outright discrimination. All temple priests maintain Women are impure- i know about the ones in Puri/Orissa and recently heard Kanchi Sankarachaya in a film, but  controversy rages only on Sabarimala issue. Kayastas fought tooth and nail to gain temple entry- calcutta high court ruled they couldn&#039;t. Once they got it, they settled for their status in religious order. I might be wrong about this specific case, but all sections of society seem to have satisfied in playing second fiddle. 

Forget about the &quot;others&quot; when will these people, those who have active interaction with the religious right and those who have achieved considerable success both in education and socio/economic status, will &quot;reclaim&quot; equality for themselves, or the symbols of power-learning Vedas, being priests, if thats the key ?

Or have they realised that, social barriers could be fought despite religion/god, that they do not represent the symbols of power anymore ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Harini,</p>
<p>I knew you had read it before (from earlier discussion), I meant that &#8220;temple entry&#8221; didnt get any good mention in the book, be for a reason probably.</p>
<p>I agree that, I should respect people&#8217;s wishes and their rights to worship.., even if I think its not a right to be somewhere on some debilitating terms. </p>
<p>There are examples aplenty in India that show, call for change comes when people face crude and outright discrimination. All temple priests maintain Women are impure- i know about the ones in Puri/Orissa and recently heard Kanchi Sankarachaya in a film, but  controversy rages only on Sabarimala issue. Kayastas fought tooth and nail to gain temple entry- calcutta high court ruled they couldn&#8217;t. Once they got it, they settled for their status in religious order. I might be wrong about this specific case, but all sections of society seem to have satisfied in playing second fiddle. </p>
<p>Forget about the &#8220;others&#8221; when will these people, those who have active interaction with the religious right and those who have achieved considerable success both in education and socio/economic status, will &#8220;reclaim&#8221; equality for themselves, or the symbols of power-learning Vedas, being priests, if thats the key ?</p>
<p>Or have they realised that, social barriers could be fought despite religion/god, that they do not represent the symbols of power anymore ?</p>
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		<title>By: gargi</title>
		<link>http://calamur.org/gargi/2008/03/07/excerpts-annihilation-of-caste-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2424</link>
		<dc:creator>gargi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://calamur.org/gargi/2008/03/07/excerpts-annihilation-of-caste-2/#comment-2424</guid>
		<description>Hi Prabin...
Yes i would. I have read the book before.. when i was much younger and found it to be relevant...
I think that Dr.Ambedkar was a Repbulican to the core -- someone who believed in all our Fundamental Rights ... including the right to worship...
I have my issues with organised religion in general... and have serious issues with the way &#039;Hindu&#039; power systems dealt with sections who were non upper caste male....
But, if someone wants to go and worship in a temple in their manner in which they wish... that is their right - fundamental right guaranteed by the constitution.... my own misgivings on religion, opiates, and subjugation don&#039;t come into the picture...
it may not be a right I want for myself (for example the right to wear the sacred thread or the right to perform the last rights), the right to learn the vedas)  - all traditionally barred for women... but if someone fights for that right under the constitution ... more power to them..
The social barriers in India -- the programmed barriers of do&#039;s and don&#039;ts go beyond rejecting God and religion. Maybe it is the appropriation / reclaiming  of the symbols of power .. that is the key !</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Prabin&#8230;<br />
Yes i would. I have read the book before.. when i was much younger and found it to be relevant&#8230;<br />
I think that Dr.Ambedkar was a Repbulican to the core &#8212; someone who believed in all our Fundamental Rights &#8230; including the right to worship&#8230;<br />
I have my issues with organised religion in general&#8230; and have serious issues with the way &#8216;Hindu&#8217; power systems dealt with sections who were non upper caste male&#8230;.<br />
But, if someone wants to go and worship in a temple in their manner in which they wish&#8230; that is their right &#8211; fundamental right guaranteed by the constitution&#8230;. my own misgivings on religion, opiates, and subjugation don&#8217;t come into the picture&#8230;<br />
it may not be a right I want for myself (for example the right to wear the sacred thread or the right to perform the last rights), the right to learn the vedas)  &#8211; all traditionally barred for women&#8230; but if someone fights for that right under the constitution &#8230; more power to them..<br />
The social barriers in India &#8212; the programmed barriers of do&#8217;s and don&#8217;ts go beyond rejecting God and religion. Maybe it is the appropriation / reclaiming  of the symbols of power .. that is the key !</p>
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