My mother told me, a long time ago, never to debate religion or politics with strangers. i am breaking that rule tonight!
there is a panel discussion (more like panel typing) on “Challenging Left Liberalism” . It is being ‘held’ at the Offstumped Community Portal , and starts at 7 pm IST. the debate/discussion (i am hoping it is the latter’ will be between Swapan DasGupta, Kanchan Gupta, Ashok Malik & yours truly !!
Left Liberal is defined by the site as ” any ideology or policy that advocates all of below.” :
#1 Primacy of Individual over Community and the State in making Cultural Choice
#2 Illegitimacy of Community in making any Cultural Choice on behalf of Individual.
#2 Primacy of the State over Community and primacy of the Community over the Individual in making Economic Choice
#3 Illegitimacy of any autonomy to the Individual in making Economic Choice
#4 Illegitimacy of any autonomy to the State in making choices to preserve itself
I guess that this slicing & dicing would make Margaret Thatcher a somewhat left liberal 🙂 the debate should be fun … do drop in !
There would definitely be some hard words flowing from each side..
i believe it will be civil. 🙂 at least i hope so 🙂
“#3 Illegitimacy of any autonomy to the Individual in making Economic Choice”
Who, really, does ‘definition’ describe, Harini?
Wait, I know: Straw-Person! One who takes economic agency away from all individuals and invests it all in the State.
The ‘definition’ appears to be just the opposite of a certain variant of ‘conservative right’ that combines libertarianism in economic affairs *and* meddling in people’s choices in social affairs (in the name of ‘respect’ for ‘tradition’).
my bigger problem is with one and two. it seems to indicate a legitimacy of stuff like caste panchayats, or institutionalised discrimination of women – based on all scriptures (or interpretation of those )
i subscribe to balance – various agencies or stakeholders that balance each other out and ensure that there is no primacy in terms of power concentration ! very Hindu of me (but not very Hindutva 🙂
I agree with Abi – only Stalinists would subscribe to “#3 Illegitimacy of any autonomy to the Individual in making Economic Choice” — and it doesn’t apply to the Individuals in power, only to the proletariat; and even “#2 Primacy of the State over Community and primacy of the Community over the Individual in making Economic Choice” is extremist — at best some “left liberals” may argue that some economic choices should be made by the state.
I read 1 and 2 as saying the caste panchayats, institutionalised discrimination etc are not legitimate: society cannot dictate an individual’s cultural values. I don’t see a problem with that. But perhaps you are saying that 1 and 2 make it impossible to control discrimination at an individual level. Which is certainly a problem. Which returns to what Abi says — all of these points are strawmen. Nobody I know is such an extreme leftist or an extreme libertarian — and most certainly nobody could possibly subscribe to all those points in their entirety, dogmatically.
Frankly, it looks like a pretty pointless debate.
“I read 1 and 2 as saying the caste panchayats, institutionalised discrimination etc are not legitimate: society cannot dictate an individual’s cultural values.”
i see it as saying that only left liberals will support the right of the individual to be.
by this definition, a person who is right of centre or a right liberal – would support a caste panchayat or a fatwa against the individual ! A bit like the Republicans backing anti abortionists !
I think all this is a pretty abstract definition of left-liberalism. The definition in India context is pretty simple:
Hindu Fundamentalism: BAD! BAD! BAD!
Muslim Fundamentalism : Hmm. I don’t know. Maybe bad. Well, not so bad. Actually Hindu Fundamentalism is the real deal. Let us talk about Hindu Fundamentalism, shall we! Oh you don’t think so, you fundamentalist, nazi, fascist, gutter snipe!!
all fundamentalism is bad. i don’t like Muslim fundamentalism any more than i like Hindu fundamentalism – both try and reduce the choice of the individual citizen.
i would rather look at the middle ground – centrist politics and more importantly centrist economics.
If you think all fundamentalism is bad, good for you. Please be prepared to be called gutter snipe etc. by the leading lights of secularism for this stand of yours.
Good luck!
that is cool – it i can handle abuse 🙂
the funny thing is that this kind of stand will lead to abuse grom all sides!
With the temptation to join into comment wars on people’s blog with politicaly inclined posts, it will become difficult to follow your mothers advice.
All the best 🙂
Wait,
Kanchan Gupta, if I am not wrong, is BJP think-tank
Sapan, if I am not wrong, is BJP ex-think-tank
Ashok Malik, if I am not wrong, is with Pioneer, with which has Chanan Mitra, (if I am not wrong, is BJP think-tank) and Kanchan Gupta.
Is this a one-sided debate ? 🙂
🙂 i am not anything BJP, not even a voter !
i keep saying it should be fun 🙂
The middle path is the best one.. Left following economies should move towards and right following path should move towards left. The symbiosis of rebel visionary and socities is free from left and right. I don’t have more idea about this topic, so will hear what you have to say…
The definition is mostly incorrect. #3 is the only one that is right.
Left-Liberal-Progressivism-Socialism is all about the collective. The individual doesn’t matter except for how it can serve the collective.