Dick Cheney is offendend by Amnesty’s description of Guantanamo Bay as the “American Gulag”. It would have been so much more humane to have been offended by the torture.
Stuffing his foot further down his mouth he said:
“I think the fact of the matter is, the United States has done more to advance the cause of freedom, has liberated more people from tyranny over the course of the 20th century and up to the present day than any other nation in the history of the world,”
Vietnam, Cambodia, Latin America, Chile, Haiti, Phillipines, Namibia, the list probably will ecombass two thirds of globe. Countries that have been raped, ruined and ground underfoot by the great American juggernaut. People have disappeared – tortured and then killed. American Benevolence has cost the people of the world dearly.
Ofcourse his last quote is the funniest. He says that the insurgency is dying down. This is ofcourse on the same day that the Chief of Police in Basra ..
admitted … that he had effectively lost control of three-quarters of his officers and that sectarian militias had infiltrated the force and were using their posts to assassinate opponents.
Good god! insurgency is replaced by mayhem. I guess that this is the US Government’s definition of progress!
It reminded me of that old joke – doctor: the operation is successful, but the patient is dead
I’m not a supporter of Mr. Cheney or his politics, but he’s right in this case. Amnesty is going too far. When you do that, you water down the terrible terrible things that were done in gulags. Guantanamo Bay is not a “model prison” we know, but I doubt it is a gulag.
Also, let’s not underestimate America’s role in fostering freedom. Yes, there have been many foreign policy errors. But that does not mean there were no successes. And the US has been perhaps the only nation willing to stick it’s neck out.
Just a thought experiment: if you had to choose, where would you live – North Korea or South Korea?
A gulag was a place where the human spirit was systematically broken by the state. it doesn’t matter whether that state is the USSR or the USA. And it doesnt’ matter whether it happens to one person or a million – the nature of state repression remains the same. yazad, read some of the testimonies and the papers that have been released – it makes you sick in the stomach.
America’s role has been in fostering the interests of American business. name me one country where American intervention has led to the evolution of a democratic process. It has supported some of the worst dictators in the world.
neither. that’s like asking whether you would have liked living in a Chile under pinochet or a Cuba under Castro or a Saudi Arabia under the Al Saud’s. A dictatorship by any other is still a dictatorship.
Exactly. I think it’s current fashion to equate America with the very worst. And of course Mr. Bush and company’s aggresive attitude does not help. But so called thinkers should sometimes stop and think. Just because something is unacceptable (current Guantanamo Bay) does not mean it is equal to something much much much worse (Gulags). Magnitude matters.
Really? You’d equate North and South Korea? I chose the two for contrast value — one was propped by a communist dictatorship and the other by the US. Think a little carefully before answering.
And the American business part does not hold true in many cases – Afghanistan? South Korea?
Warning: I’m completely all over the place but I have to throw this out there and let the words fall where they may… Please know that I truly respect all views.
I am divided on this issue. One thing I can say with certainty in my heart is that George Bush is akin to a war criminal in my eyes. The invasion of Iraq was wrong.
Regarding the Amnesty report… I have to say that my opinion is not fully formed. I do think that the holding of prisoners without official charges and whatnot is dangerous… but the ultimate escalation of attacks on the US culminating in 9/11 were either not anticipated or it was part of a great plan by Osama and his group to precipitate the the further erosion of our relationships with our “allies” around the world. Irrational acts breed irrational measures.
However, I’ve heard of the conditions in the gulags versus the ultimate treatment of the prisoners at Guantanimo is very much different. Yes… the treatment is terrible but not at the same level. According to descriptions I’ve read, they ultimately don’t compare to the level that the initial report tried to make claim to. Now, I have not seen all the news reports but there was a gentleman from Amnesty on CNN backpedaling a bit by saying that there were some similarities etc. Also, gulag survivors have also started weighing in too… So, maybe I am leaning towards the side of thinking Amnesty is kind of over doing it like the Bush administration is over doing it.
It’s all one viciously crappy circle, isn’t it?
I think systematically having many world leaders lump the US in with the world’s greatest evils is wrong. I think if we continue down this path…we would become what many nations think we are today. I still hold out hope that we can change things with the next election. I pray for this.
I just think that the US cultural and political stance on these things are just as complex as the situations that the Middle East and other parts of the world find frustration with.
I remember being in one of my social science classes and hearing comments from ethnic Chinese, African-Americans, Hispanics and Mexican born class attendees and more… all basically said that if “they” were in power, they would want their share of the pie (thus relagating others into a minority niche of limited impact and wealth sharing. I stood up and said that I was afraid of anyone of these groups attaining the mantle of power of the white man because of wanting a spirit of inclusion to replace the oppression of the dominant group, they would replace it with their own.
Applying this to an even greater scale, I truly believe this world is fucked until we, as humans, learn that this planet is a single living breathing ecosystem, so to speak, and until we become citizens of the world, we are doomed to strangle ourselves in these types of struggles. Unfortunately, when an ideaology like the type embraced by these insurgents comes up against ours …it now becomes an endgame struggle. So man evil things are bound to happen in the ensuing struggle. The price, however, is going to be higher because of the methods that will be employed on first one side and then the other.
Coming from my soul — I can say that Amnesty would cease to exist if the insurgents ultimately have their way. The United States is not perfect (like every other country on this planet) but there is some preservation of hope that things can change.
Sorry for being all over the place but I’m tired and wanted to still try and respond tonight. This was too good to pass up.
Oh, this reality is a complex twisted situation… I need sleepl…
I agree largely with Bernando, especially this point: Coming from my soul — I can say that Amnesty would cease to exist if the insurgents ultimately have their way. The United States is not perfect (like every other country on this planet) but there is some preservation of hope that things can change.
I wonder why noone has noticed that Amnesty would not have existed in a world of gulags? All of them would be in the gulag. The fact that people can go and publicly criticise the President of the US, call him a Nazi and call US prisons gulags and NOTHING whatsoever is done to them says a hell of a lot about civil liberties in the US.
For an alternate point of view, read Shamnesty International
Let’s for a moment assume that it is one of us getting tortured. Does it really matter whether it is a “benevolent†state that is carrying out the action, a theological state or a police/military state. It really doesn’t matter whether you are being tortured in the name of God, Demorcracy or Communism. The fact is that you are being tortured.
Now, the question is – is it all right to torture terrorists, anti-national forces, and other bodies that generally cause social mayhem and a leave citizens with a general sense of insecurity? I really don’t know the answer to that – because it is so very difficult to draw the line on “whom is it ok to torture?â€. I will give you an example:
Let’s now take forward the argument that Madarassas are breeding houses for terrorists. Where young men come to learn hate – and graduate to commit acts of terror. Now as far as torture is concerned where will you draw the line? At the terrorist who has been caught in the act of terror. At a person who has graduated from the ’school of terror’ whom you suspect may be a terrorist, the teacher who trained the students, the students’ families who probably knew what they were upto, – but kept quiet – where? Where do you draw the line.
I understand the general fear and anger towards terrorists. they have caused a lot of death and destruction in my country too. I am wary about giving the state absolute power. Very often in times of national crisis or war or internal strife – states end up assuming absoulte power in certain areas. Therefore, when states take on such powers and run roughshod over human rights – we all need to sit up and take notice, and bring the state back to its “normal†level. The state – if it could have sealed all leaks – would have made sure that this news never got out. You have to be grateful for the moral courage of ordinary American citizens who work within the system, and who have been repulsed by what their Government has become, for coming out with the truth.
The primary objection seems to be the use of the word Gulag. I see it as an effective communication tool:
Amnesty Internation, CRY , Coca Cola – Ford, any organisation – worth its salt – will put out their message in a manner that cuts through the clutter and catches popular imagination. For Amnesty Gulag did the trick. Do you really think that the world would sit up and notice, if they put out a bland “human rights violations of prisoners in Guatanamo†press release. After last years little outing at Abu Ghraib – do you reckon anyone would even notice “human rights violationâ€. The Gulag statement did its job. That along with the koran descecration – recanted by Newsweek, and then confirmed by the FBI – has put human rights back in the front line. This kind of sound byte communication is the RealPolitik of organisations today. Remember Bush senior and “read my lips, no new taxes†or Clinton “the Economy stupidâ€, or Cokes’ “paanch matlab coca cola†these are all lines and words meant to stick in popular perception. And, in that sense, Amnesty’s Gulag tag will also stick. Unless the US government does something quite unexpected, and comes completely clean on the issues. Until such time it blusters and bullies – the Newsweek fiasco amongst others- and evades the issue it is going to be lumped with states that systemise torture. I am not quite sure which organisation is feeling more stupid today – Newsweek for recanting so soon, or the US government for going blue in the face protesting that no such thing had happened, and then having one of its own departments saying yes, it did.
Next, on the use of the word Gulag. The contention being we shouldn’t use the word Gulag because violations by state A is not as bad as violations by state B, is a dangerous one. Again a set of examples:
In India, a couple of years ago, we had a Hindu pogrom against Muslims in the state of Gujarat. 2000+ people died. Pregnant women were gang raped and their bellies cut out. Children were burnt alive. Many of us called it a holocaust. Now, extending the logic – on American Human rights violations – not being as bad as the Soviet one – what happened in Gujarat was not a holoucast. What happened in Yugoslavia was not a Holocaust. Are we saying that if 6 million people don’t die, an event cannot be termed a Holocaust.
In an Indian riot 2000+ people die without any questions asked. A decade ago there were race riots in the US. 2000 people didn’t die. Less than a hundred died! was it a bad riot or a not so bad riot? It’s like saying, he owns slaves but he is a good master. Or he is a somewhat ok rapist because he doesn’t maim or kill the victim. Is a Tsunami that kills tens of thousands of people a worse disaster than an earthquake that kills only thousands of people. This sort of a view says that the individual does not matter, only numbers do. It’s a view that is very difficult for me to defend. It doesn’t matter if the offending state is mine or yours.
Now on the Democracy aspect. I believe that the American people have managed to question their government at every stage, and made the government accountible to the people. I have a great deal of respect for the way the people of the US have managed their freedom. I admire the fact that an uneducated woman can take the government to court, and win. I admire the fact that the poorest citizen in their country can hope to aspire for a better tomorrow. I aplaud the fact that when human rights violations happen in the US, the people of the country protest. As far as the state is concerened, it is like any state – secretive, power hungry, and interested in maintaining the status quo. Respect of the American people preserving the Democratic nature of their society does not have anything to do with the conduct of their government outside their shores.
Finally guys, in an ideal world you won’t need the police, the army, the tax collector, the state, or bureaucracy let alone amnesty international. But, we don’t live in an ideal world
Amnesty is now digging a hole for it to enter.
‘Don’t know for sure’ about Guantanamo: Amnesty USA
yazad – newsweek recanted – but the story was true. As far as Shultz – the American head of AI – is concerned, this is what he said (from the same Reuter’s Article)
here .
this includes him talking about secret jails run by the US government where prisoners are mistreated and even killed. He says in the reuteur’s article:
Like i said the term Gulag was a communication tool. If the word concentration camp works in grabbing attention and drives the point that human right violations are rampant – i would use it:)